32 | Feminist Parenting + Dismantling Gender Roles with Catherine Bailey

Sep 6

32 | Feminist Parenting + Dismantling Gender Roles with Catherine Bailey

In today’s episode, I discuss feminist parenting and gender roles with Catherine Bailey. As a former lawyer and policy advocate, Catherine’s expertise in cultural and societal expectations led to the founding of her company, Think or Blue. Through her work as a Certified Fair Play Facilitator, Catherine helps parents and caregivers break free from outdated gender norms, feel more supported in parenthood, and raise children who are happy to be themselves.

Our discussion focuses on bringing gender equity to the home and the importance of relearning gender roles to create a more inclusive and equitable society for future generations. Key topics highlighted in this episode include:

Exploration of common stereotypes and biases around gender
Mindset shifts to make our households more equitable
Relearning gender roles and societal expectations imposed on genders (especially women!)
Closing the chore gap between genders
The impact of moving from delegation to ownership
Raising children outside of gender bias
The importance of prioritizing time for yourself as a spouse or parent

If you want to learn more about Catherine Bailey and Think or Blue, I invite you to visit her website.

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Intro: Welcome to A Pleasant Solution, Embracing An Organized Life. I'm your host, certified life coach, professional organizer and home life expert, Amelia Pleasant Kennedy, and I help folks permanently eliminate clutter in their homes and lives. On this podcast we'll go beyond the basics of home organization to talk about why a clutter-free mindset is essential to an aligned and sustainable lifestyle. If you're someone with a to-do list, if you're managing a household, and if you're caring for others, this podcast is for you. Let's dive in.
Amelia: Welcome to Episode 32, Feminist Parenting and Dismantling Gender Roles with Catherine Bailey. I'm so excited to introduce you to today's guest. Catherine Bailey helps parents and caregivers break free from outdated gender norms to feel more supported in parenthood and raise children who are happy to be themselves. A former lawyer and policy advocate, Catherine has deep expertise in the cultural and social expectations impacting women, work and caregiving. As the founder of Think or Blue, Catherine provides coaching and workshops for parents to integrate their feminist ideals into everyday life so they can confidently model gender equity within the home. She is the mom of a seven-year-old, a chocolate lover, and Gilmore Girls aficionado living in Connecticut.
Amelia: Hello everyone. I am so excited to introduce you to today's guest. Catherine Bailey and I met during the Fair Play Life Facilitator program and it's been a year since we finished our program, which is kind of crazy.
Catherine: That's true. It has. A year has flown by.
Amelia: Yeah and we've kind of supported each other since. And so yeah, just tell the audience one or two things a little bit about you. I'd love to welcome you.
Catherine: Yes. It's been so nice getting to know you through the Fair Play Facilitator program. I feel so lucky to be a part of it. So I am Catherine. I'm from Connecticut. I live here with my husband and my daughter. I started my career in law and public policy and then started working on issues that impact women in the workplace and equity and things like paid family and medical leave, which I'm so passionate about. And after a while, I realized I loved policy work, but also wanted to change public opinion because then maybe one day we won't need policies to level the playing field if we change public opinion about gender roles and equity and who is supposed to do what. So that birthed Think or Blue for me, which also was kind of a passion project when I became pregnant and people started asking me all these questions about, do you know what it is? And insistent on learning more about the sex of the baby and it became almost this social experiment to see people's reactions and then start documenting it at that time.
Amelia: Oh my goodness, I kind of want a window into that moment in time in your life and your brain.
Catherine: It was fascinating. And sometimes I would make jokes and sometimes people would get really annoyed with me about, why won't you tell me? Don't you want to be prepared? I think they were probably speaking from their own perspective and experience and that's fine. There are so many reasons why people do want to find out and I don't judge other people for that. It was just really interesting to see how they put that on me and my little family. And then of course, right away I just started to notice as soon as she was born, all of the stereotypes and gender norms that were thrust upon her at an early age, and upon all kids to be clear, this isn't just something that girls are impacted by. This is something that all kids are impacted by. So I'm very passionate about that and then bringing gender equity into the home. So that's how I got involved with the Fair Play Facilitator program because it seemed like such a natural step that a lot of the roles we carry within the household are because of cultural and social expectations, many of which come from gender norms.
Amelia: Yes. And we are going to get to the heart of that in our conversation here today. So I love to ask every guest that I have on what did organization look like during your childhood? And feel free to use organization in a flexible way, if that makes sense for you.
Catherine: Yeah. Well it's funny, I was thinking back to my childhood, Amelia, and I think of myself when I was a child, I was sort of the queen of piles. I had lots of piles on my little desk in my childhood bedroom. I had piles on the floor and I could find anything. So to me it was sort of organized, but there was a lot there because I had a hard time parting with things. And listening to your podcast has been amazing along my journey of thinking more deeply about myself and my own organization barriers, because that's one of them. I'm very sentimentally attached to items. And so that's something I've been looking at more in adulthood. And it's such a great story that my mom is also a bit sentimentally attached to items. And when I was a teenager, she had her jumpsuits from the seventies, like very almost disco-era stuff in our basement cedar closet, to the point where in the late nineties my high school friends and I dug through them and we wore them to like costume parties and dances and stuff and they were amazing because they were legit for vintage.
I think I also have that inclination to want to hold onto stuff. And even as a kid, I would look at a music box and think, well, I know who gave this to me. My uncle gave this to me for my fifth birthday and I had all of that in my head. So it made it very hard for me to part with items. And I think early on in adulthood I looked at this as sort of a fault. And now I'm able to look at it a little bit more non-judgmentally and sort of go through the process and say, okay, let me think about the person who gave this to me in maybe that moment and wish them well and sort of appreciate the item for what it held to me. And then also understand that I don't necessarily need to hold onto that item in order to keep the memory. So that's been a journey for me in adulthood and I really, again, thank you for your podcast. It's just been amazing in helping me continue that journey.
Amelia: Well, I received that feedback and I'm so appreciative of your perspective and taking a look back at your childhood, because I'm sure that resonates with many listeners and we are attached to our objects. And there are mindset strategies to begin to create some separation if there are items you're ready to let go of.
Amelia: So again, one of these core elements of my podcast is mindset alignment. And for me, when I feel in alignment, my body feels relaxed, calm, and things make sense both in my body and in my brain. And I've done a lot of work to kind of question what I learned growing up and the messages I've received from my larger community about identity, gender, these roles, etcetera. And that's my work but some of the folks listening may be at the beginning of this journey for themselves. So I'd love for you to kind of define for me first what gender roles are and talk about some of the common stereotypes or biases that may exist around gender.
Catherine: Absolutely. I love to share with people right off the bat, don't feel guilty for having biases. We all have them. And so the first step is to just normalize that and accept it and not feel like, oh, I don't have bias. I don't think this way about boys or girls or anything like that, or race or disability or anything. We all have biases because of the culture that we were raised in, the family that we were raised in. So it's okay to acknowledge that off the bat and not have a sense of guilt about it. We can just move forward from there.
So a gender stereotype is an assumption that a person makes about another person's interests, behavior, or skills based on their sex. And that's often how someone presents, how they present their gender because a lot of times we don't know someone's gender unless they tell us. So we make a lot of assumptions about the way a person presents. And let's say a very simple example of this would be when my daughter was about three or four years old, we ran into a neighbor's parents along a bike ride. And it was noted that my daughter had some kind of bandaid over a cut, I forget what it was, maybe it was like Sesame Street or cars or something like that. And the adult said, oh, I'm surprised you don't have the Little Mermaid or something like that. I was like, oh, that's interesting. You know, like we've never actually seen the Little Mermaid when she was three. And that's just an assumption that someone made based on this kid I was with who had long-ish hair and looked like a girl. So that's a very basic example of a gender stereotype. And then of course these follow us through our lives.
Amelia: They do. Which gets to the way it actually influences us as an adult. So you and I both work with adults, some of whom are parents, couples, partners, and these biases show up in the way that we run our homes as well. It influences the way we keep house, the way that we emotionally connect with our partners and our children, and also who does what with the home. So when we're talking about adults and kind of these messages we've received over our lives, some of us are ready to kind of unlearn or undo those long held beliefs about what it means to be a girl, what it means to be a boy, or now we have lots of space in between, which is amazing.
Catherine: Exactly.
Amelia: But how do we unlearn, especially when it comes to household responsibilities and caregiving?
Catherine: Yeah, that's such a great question because those expectations about gender do follow us into adulthood, as you said. And one of the biggest factors in making our households more equitable, as you know, is our mindset and what we've been trained to think that we are good at and that we are capable of and what we are supposed to do. So we still have a whole host of generations of men who've learned that their primary importance to their family is breadwinning. And that's instilled at a young age. Whereas I've heard teenage girls who are already thinking about getting a job that will allow them flexibility to be with their families. Is that right or wrong? No, it's not right or wrong. It's just fascinating that 16 year old girls are already trained to think about finding a flexible job, whereas a teenage boy is just trained to think about finding a good job that pays well.
So then we bring these into adulthood and I think a lot of people who are socialized as girls and women are almost not confused, but begrudgingly just accepting this role that was thrust on them to be the main coordinator of the house. And that's a big role. When a lot of people think about gender roles in the household, they think of, okay, men are more likely to take out the trash or do lawn care and home maintenance and women are maybe more likely to be cleaning and cooking and the things inside the home and doing the childcare. And while yes, some of that's true, the bigger problem that we have is that women are told they need to coordinate and run everything in the household, and that if something slips, it's their fault.
Amelia: Yes.
Catherine: So this is the mindset work that we have to do where if your child shows up to school with rips in their pants or dirt on their shirt, like who does everyone blame? The mother, if there is a mother. And we know that, as women we exist knowing that we are judged more harshly and we're held to a higher standard. So of course we're going to feel responsible for the way our children are presented. While it may be easier for others to say your standards are too high, so this takes a lot of unlearning for everyone.
Amelia: It does. And I love the term coordinator because I can visualize sort of all of the logistics, the planning, the noticing and then the mistakes that inevitably happen in life which translate for many women into guilt, shame. We're blaming ourselves, we're blaming others and that really changes the mood within the household. And it all stems from the expectation that it is our gender's responsibility to be the coordinator.
Catherine: Exactly.
Amelia: Which is absolutely untrue and makes no sense.
Catherine: Right. And we're left with this feeling of, if I don't take care of everything, who will and what will happen to my family? So a lot of times these expectations aren't even talked about among couples. And this is a very heteronormative conversation right now that we're having, but between men and women in relationships, these conversations often aren't had. And we see that younger people, like older Gen Z and younger millennials are approaching relationships and assuming of course we're going to be egalitarian, of course we expect that. And then what actually happens after marriage or after having children, we sink deeper and deeper into those gender roles because they aren't questioned and because explicit conversations are not had about who's doing what.
Amelia: So part of the unlearning is individual work, getting curious about the way that you were raised, looking at your home life, looking at your community, your socialization, growing up. That's the kind of work we do to question whether that's something we want to bring forward into our life and our home today and going forward. And then there's the work you're talking about collaboratively with a partner and having explicit conversations as a way of unlearning and as a way of planning what we want our home to look like this day forward. Absolutely. We can't go back and always fix or repair the past but from this day forward, what are some of the ways that we want to make a change? So in your role as a fair play facilitator, what's one tip or strategy that you can offer listeners that you find helps close the chore gap between genders or kind of flip that gender script within the home?
Catherine: Definitely. And I will share one and before I do that, I want to add to that conversation that there is so much individual work that we need to do and work in our partnerships. And I don't want to discount the work that we have to do as a society because we still don't have universal paid family medical leave in the United States. We still don't have universal pre-k, there are no childcare stipends. So like we have a lot of work to do as a society too. And I want to make sure that's clear to people because something I tell folks off and on in their Fair Play journey is this is not just you. If you think your problems are unique to your households, they're really not. This is a problem that's bigger than you. And so I love to think of it as doing all that work at the same time. Like, let's fix society and let's fix our homes at the same time.
Amelia: I love that. I'm glad you pointed that out because as a professional organizer, one of the things that we experience when we go into people's homes is that intimacy, is that private space. And we often do feel like the conversation is only happening within our home but the more we have conversations within our individual homes and speak up in terms of larger policy and society and public opinion then we can see it reflected in the larger spaces around us.
Catherine: Definitely. So with that, one tip that I think is such a game changer for many couples out there is, it sounds simple, but it's complicated. And it's to move from a delegation model to an ownership model. There are so many households that use a delegation model and that's typically again with a woman sort of at the top in that CEO role who is giving instructions to her partner to maybe children, other dependents and people living in the households about what to do. And if we continue to raise our kids this way, if we continue to perpetuate that model in our own households, we're raising boys who will grow up to be men who expect to be told what to do. We will be raising girls who are expected to notice the problem when something needs to be done and take care of it.
So if we don't change things now, it's never going to change. But what I tell folks is that this is primarily responsible for the mental load. The mental load is a huge topic and you've talked about it on the podcast and it's this big term that I think people don't always know what to do with. But it really comes from if you are the person doing the knowing and the thinking and the planning, which we call a conception and planning of course, and fair play and delegating to other people in your household to do the execution, you're always going to have the mental load. You're never really going to take anything off your plate. So that's key to fixing the problem.
Amelia: So key, and I think that switching from a delegation to an ownership model is really profound because delegation is what we see in our workplaces and it is the standard or norm. So it does take conscious conversation, it does take unlearning, it does take willingness and to be fair, a little bit of work to shift to the other model. I love it. And so thank you. Ownership is huge, owning from beginning to end, and I love that Eve has brought that definitely to us all.
Let's switch to talk a little bit about parenting and parent-child relationships, because when we talk again about gender, there is that dynamic within the home. And I love that a fair amount of your work, the focus of your work is on children and educating parents about gender. So Catherine has a ton of resources on her website, so please definitely go and check them out. Talk to me about why it's important for parents and just all adults to be mindful about the language that they use with their children and how they model, who notices what needs to be done within the home, because we're talking about switching from delegation to ownership.
Catherine: Yes. I love the question and it's a big answer. And so I'll try to dial it down to two things. One is the language. There is a ton of gender bias behind our language as adults. So we use more words with baby girls, we use more feeling words with girls, we talk less with boys, but we use more spatial language. So you'll see right from the get go, even at nine months, 18 months old, we already have these biases about what we expect from baby girls and baby boys. And as they grow up, we see these disparities kind of come alive. So right now girls worldwide do about 40% more chores than boys do, and they tend to be gendered as well. So mothers are more likely to engage their daughters in baking and cleaning. And fathers are more likely to engage their sons in home maintenance and lawn care and things like that.
And I wouldn't say anyone is doing this with intent or maliciously or anything like that. Again it's very unconscious. But when you're looking at teen girls and thinking, wow, they're doing 40% more chores than teen boys and we already know that teen girls do more homework than boys, suddenly that's about, I think six and a half hours per month that they're dedicating to the home. And what could they be doing with those six and a half hours? Could they be volunteering? Could they be doing sports? Could they be relaxing, engaging in self-care?
Amelia: Learning to rest.
Catherine: Exactly. Which is something that all of us are still learning. And this was during Covid, there was even more of an impact. 66% of girls and women aged 14 to 24 were spending lots more time cooking for their families compared with only 31% of boys in that age group. Like many disparities, that's another one that Covid highlighted for us. So if we kind of just let those slide and let them be, then things aren't really going to change. And one thing that you and I have talked a little bit about in the past is the noticing, I wrote an article recently for Sunshine Magazine that you were in as well as a couple other parents. And we talked in there about learning to help our sons to notice when something needs to be done, rather than having them wait for the female in charge that so often happens to give them instructions. What if we raised a generation of boys who are able to notice a problem or a need in the households and take care of it and care for their families? What kind of men would we have in 10, 20 years? Isn't that exciting to think about?
Amelia: It is. And for the listeners who are wondering how to make that happen, I will share my own example. So currently as I’m recording this podcast, I'm living in a split household arrangement intentionally. I am living with my son on his soccer journey. And so I actually will go into the bathroom, I'll call my son over and I'll say, what do you notice that needs to be done here?
Catherine: I love that.
Amelia: Maybe the trash can is full, maybe the toilet needs to be flushed, you know, whoever knows but the point is...
Catherine: Clothes on the floor.
Amelia: Yes, exactly. I don't answer the question, but I ask it, and I listen for his answer and I guide him to see what I see. So it's a practice of modeling. Hey, let's look around. What do you think needs to be done? Okay, let's make a plan of when you are going to do it.
Catherine: Yes. I love that so much. And it's such a wonderful lesson for all parents listening out there. I hope we can all do more of that.
Amelia: Yeah because typically it's invisible work that we just automatically do for one another because we love and care for each other. But with boys in particular, in order to change the future let's say, we have to be explicit and use words like, what do you notice? What do you see? Tell me about that.
Catherine: Yes. It has the potential to make such a significant change.
Amelia: Yeah. So let's switch to something fun for a minute. But when we were planning this conversation, you told me that you are committing to more Unicorn Space. First off, tell everyone what that is, unicorn space and why it's important to you.
Catherine: Definitely. I am. It's funny, I throw around that term and then realize not everyone knows what I'm talking about, but this was the second book written by Eve Rodsky about very simply, how do we find creative fulfillment as adults? And if you ask, I challenge all of your listeners to ask that question to a friend and see what their response is. I feel like a lot of people are just boggled about that question. They're like, what are you talking about? What's that?
Amelia: I used to like to do things.
Catherine: I used to have hobbies. I just, I don't know what they are anymore.
Amelia: But you're rediscovering them.
Catherine: I'm, it's been such a fun journey and I really credit that having a small book club to do this together. I would highly encourage you, if you have a book club already bring this book to everyone. If you don't just gather like two or three friends, grab your mom or a friend or a sister or a neighbor and just read the book together and commit to some unicorn space. Having that accountability has been amazing for me. I got four other friends together, we're now calling ourselves the “Uni’s,” checking in about how you are doing with your unicorn space and giving each other updates. It's been such a fantastic thing. So along this journey, it's funny, Amelia. I feel like I had some unicorn space, like in my, of course as a child and then even in my twenties before having kids, like I was big into scrapbooking my travels and for my niece and nephew and things like that.
That was so fun to me. And then I lost things like that along the way. So after I read the book, what I love the most in the book is that it puts together values with the kind of random interests that you have. And that is really how I have found the gold. So my first foray into unicorn space, just in this past year, after reading the book and chatting about it with my book club, I was like, you know what, I'm going to start tap dancing again because I tapped for 10 years as a child. I was a dancer and I was signing my kid up for theater activities as you do. We're so familiar with enriching our children. We want them to have music and art and sports and all this stuff. And then do we do that for ourselves? No, we do it for our kids. We don't do it for ourselves.
So I signed her up for theater and I saw this thing that said “tap for adults.” And I was like, what is that? And the timing was so perfect and I thought, you know what? I have to do this. There were a thousand reasons that I could have talked myself out of it. And some of those questions came up. So I want people to know if those questions are coming up, you are not alone. I thought to myself, who are you to start tap dancing again? No one wants to see you tap dance. Can you even still tap dance? B, who do you think you are to go on Monday at 11:00 AM to a dance class? You should be earning money or taking care of your family. There's a lot of shame involved with that that I don't think we talk about very much. Now. I'm lucky, yes I have my own business and I set my own hours. I know not everyone can go at 11:00 AM but still there might be a time of day where you're feeling shame about like, well, I'm supposed to be spending that time after school with my kids.
Amelia: It's that voice.
Catherine: Right the voice coming up, no matter what time of day it is. I had shame about that I should be earning money or doing something instead. And I put all of that to the side and went for it. And it was amazing. I was like one of the youngest people in the class. I ended up doing it for about six months. I plan on returning to it in the next few weeks. And at that very first class, the feeling it gave me was just this joy. Did I look great doing it? I mean, no, it had been forever. It's okay. But the feeling it gave me, I was like, oh yeah, this is it. This is the unicorn space right here.
Amelia: I love that. Because everything we do or don't do really is in search of that feeling and what a gift to yourself.
Catherine: Yes. And then I took it even a step further, Amelia, because here's the thing too, tap dancing is very physical. I think as women and often as mothers, one of the only acceptable forms of time away from your children is to exercise. Like it's socially acceptable to go for a run. It's socially acceptable to go to yoga class or bar class. Is it socially acceptable to go paint or to go learn woodworking or pottery? Suddenly, oh, that's time that's just for me. And so the conversation becomes a little different. So I decided to up the ante a little bit more when I brought the values together with the sort of random interests I have. I was just writing down random things I'm interested in. And what came together for me was Family Plus Gilmore Girls, which is one of my favorite TV shows. And my sister and I are huge fans and we've been wanting to do something for so long. We ended up starting a podcast just a couple months ago talking about the themes behind Gilmore Girls.
Amelia: Yay. Oh my gosh, that's so creative and so fun. And I bet it's such a delight for you to produce and for the listeners for sure.
Catherine: It's been so fun. So we thought it came to me like this would also combine my interest with, we're talking about topics like motherhood and feminism and relationships, rather than sort of just watching the show in order, it's more of a thematic podcast. And neither of us realized how much we were looking for something like this until we decided to do it together. And it's been truly amazing.
Amelia: Well, what's the name of the podcast?
Catherine: Yeah, it's called, it's called “Gabbing Gilmore.” And it started at the end of June. We have four episodes out and we have another few recorded. And it's been such a delight because we go together to do it and we record in person at our library and it's just been the best experience.
Amelia: Beautiful. So as we wrap up today, let me take you back to the question I asked you at the beginning of the conversation, but kind of to bring it forward now. Coordinating with your sister to do a podcast sounds like it requires organization. Are there any other creative ways that you employ organization now as an adult?
Catherine: Yeah, one of my favorite things over the last two years has been the way I approach my sort of daily planner. So I shifted from a daily to-do list mindset to monthly planning. And this is something that I do in a small group. It's called the Flourish Alchemy Group, run by Beth Larsson. And I've been a part of the small group for, yeah, I think close to two years now. And I love the way that we approach thinking about our month instead of just, what do I have to do? We think as a group kind of, but it's an individual exercise about different buckets in your life and how do I want to approach those? So like health, creativity, prosperity and finances, relationships, love. And so it gives me this chance to be so much more mindful about all those areas of my life rather than just what do I have to do for work and what do I have to do for my kid?
Because if I just went in my normal productivity manner, like I'm an Enneagram three, I like to be efficient and productive. If I just went do, do, do, do, do. That's all I would be doing is thinking about work and my kid and what needs to get done. This allows me to be so much more thoughtful and proactive about what I want to get out of my month. Like what are my desires? And so it's an organization activity, but it's also just a different way of approaching my life and I'm really loving it.
Amelia: Thank you so much for sharing that because what came up for me is that it is a lens. When you're talking about these buckets or areas of your life and what do you desire for them, it's a lens through which you get to choose to love and invest and actively seek out what you want and place yourself at the center rather than the list at the center.
Catherine: Exactly. And rather than placing other people's needs as the core of my to-do list, we're always anchoring it back to what she calls our juicy dream. How is this moving you forward towards your juicy dreams? And if that's a concept that a lot of your listeners are probably like, oh my gosh, I don't even know.
Amelia: Time to turn it off.
Catherine: You might not know them yet, but like just consider this an invitation to invite that word or that term into your life as something to think about.
Amelia: Awesome. Well thank you so much for your time, Catherine. Again, I want to point everyone towards Think or Blue, your website, your feminist parenting resource library. You're amazing. Tell all the people how they can access your free information, get on your email list, any classes you might be teaching.
Catherine: Thank you so much, Amelia. It's been such a delight. I always enjoy chatting with you and today has been no exception. People can find me at www.thinkorblue.com. That's my website. I'm on pretty much all the socials at Think or Blue. But really the best way, part of my intentional way of living is not being sort of yoked to the cell phone and to social media at all times. And so the best way for people is to join my newsletter. If you're interested in what you heard today about gender bias and raising young people outside of gender bias, I have a free guide that has 20 places your gender bias is hiding that you might not know about as a parent. So it's an invitation to just get more intentional about that. And that's at www.thinkorblue.com/genderbias. So people can go there and download that if they want to and figure out how they want to implement that in their homes.
Amelia: Awesome. Thank you so much, Catherine. It was an absolute pleasure.
Catherine: Thank you, Amelia. I love listening to your podcast. Keep up the great work.
Outro: Hey y'all, my monthly second Friday's workshop series is here. Join me on the second Friday of every month in 2023 for a practical no-frills come as you are hour of teaching and coaching. I'll show you exactly how I handle one area of home organization then the floor will be open for questions and coaching. We'll troubleshoot what's feeling challenging for you and get you unstuck on the spot. Find out more and register at www.apleasantsolution.com/workshops or via Instagram (@apleasantsolution). Can't wait to meet you.